So in today's episode, we are going to talk about something that has been a big theme in our five plus years of our dom sub dynamic.
And it's been the theme of helping you unwind your own sense of control.
Yes.
And you know, specifically, I remember one time telling you that I couldn't be your dominant if you were already dumbing yourself, right? So to start out today, I would love to hear you just share when I say that or when I said that, how did that land for you? And what did that like that statement do to help you kind of see into yourself? Um I'm trying to decide where to start.
It hit me pretty hard because what my goal was to was let me start over.
I was already your submissive by the time you said that to me and this whole idea of letting go, it's this abstract like concept.
Like I'm not physically hanging on to anything.
But my life was showing that I was operating in patterns that controlled me.
And as much as I sought to be free from those patterns, some of them, I just didn't know how to get out of.
And so along the way you said that comment to me and it kind of was a wake up call.
I guess that of all the ways that I thought that I was following you, but I was still actually controlling my own experience.
I was allowing this voice in my head to control so much of my life all while trying to let you lead me.
It wasn't just you dumbing yourself.
It wasn't just you being your own dominant.
You also let a lot of different forces kind of have control in your life.
Yeah, I mean, looking back at all of my life, you know, we can look back and have what feels closer to a 2020 vision, right? And I guess that theme started from a very young age.
And I would say that my first experience of that would have been religion because I was so absorbed in it.
I went to a private school five days a week.
I went to church every Sunday and when the school year was on Sunday, school was on.
And so six out of the seven days a week for a lot of the year, I was absorbed into this structure that in my mind was teaching me right from wrong, was teaching me how to be good.
And so in that experience and through a lot of the rest of your childhood, you were learning how to be a follower in a lot of ways.
But also in the more in the, the piece of that, that turned out to be pretty challenging for you in being so good at following was that you became really good at following everything every time that someone wanted to tell you what to do and then you had your own internal monologue of you telling yourself what to do.
Yeah.
And you know, it's no surprise we already talked about this so many times, this thing of perfectionism and while I don't know what's all underneath that, I can look back and see how a lot of my life was and it doesn't matter where it all came from, but it played out in so many different ways.
And so there was always this, this deep, um, black and white thinking this is good, that's bad and I needed to be good.
There was this deep need to be accepted and it seemed like in my life, the only way that I was accepted was when I was, um, following the rules, um, getting good grades, you know, not causing any problems and probably not speaking up along all that as well.
Sit down, shut up, be quiet.
Don't do anything other than what you're told.
Yeah.
And so I clung to that way of living and I can see that pattern like, gosh, let's be real.
The school system supports that way of being like the kids who cause problems in class get sent to the principal's office.
And so my, my whole life was just absorbed in trying to be that good girl.
And now a lot of our listeners who listen to this podcast because they either want dominant submissive dynamics in their life or they are working with a partner trying to do this.
They might hear that you were super obedient.
You were always the good girl.
You always did what you were told and think that would make for a great submissive.
Why? Sure it does.
It does and it doesn't at the same time.
Exactly.
So how did that obedience make it harder for you to actually follow me? Once they, once they put that collar on you, you agreed to become my submissive and to follow me.
And it wasn't always as easy because it seems like it could have been right.
And so you at the very beginning in our 30 days of discussion around um am I going to say yes, I remember you pointing out to me this natural um submissive nature and I didn't disagree with it.
I didn't see it as a bad thing until quote unquote bad until you helped me see that I was being submissive to these organizations that actually hurt me.
And by that point, you know, we had already left organized religion.
And so I was already on the journey of, you know, what is God, what, what was religion like? How do these two things fit together.
And so my eyes were already open to some of the contradictions that I had absorbed in my early life.
Ok.
So, you know, at the beginning, I had this desire to please, I, I wanted to make you happy eventually going down this path.
I recognize that I was also doing that at the expense of myself sometimes, but not always.
And so when I was able to notice that it was much easier to start looking at the ways where I rejected what I needed or wanted in the moment just to make you happy.
And once you notice that once I noticed that I couldn't, not also notice the experience that I was having internally, the feeling of abandoning myself for the sake of someone else.
And that just doesn't feel good.
That's one thing that, that, that's an important point on this.
You were obedient, you were a follower, you were like naturally submissive.
And that, that is a part of what showed me that this style of relationship dynamic would be good for us, for anyone who's maybe new to the podcast.
We were 10 years into our relationship, eight years of being married when I asked you to be my submissive.
And so I knew you really well and I could see that this would be a, a beneficial, a valuable way for us to organize our relationship.
That's why I asked you, but that natural obedience was really tinged with something that you didn't know at the time.
And I really came to understand as we tried to integrate these dynamics into our life, which was you didn't know the difference between following and obedience because it felt good to you and following and obedience because you were just trying to do it because you're supposed to, right? Very good way of explaining that.
So how did you then come to know what it felt like to follow because it was good for you because it felt good because you wanted to, how, how did you get to understand that feeling? Well, feeling is the appropriate word.
And so once I came to notice the feel of not speaking up, the rejection, the self abandonment, it was very much contrasting the feeling of actually doing something to please you.
And in all reality, there wasn't a lot of ways that I was operating out of a self abandonment, at least that I remember at this point.
Um And so when I did notice it, it was an ill feeling inside my body.
And when I was able to speak that to you and then you received it, you know, because one of the greatest examples was when I wasn't asking for any time for myself, because for a while I had a lot of time to go on walks and whatever kind of do my thing.
And then all of a sudden we had all of our time together and it was great.
And for the mo like for the most part, it was what I wanted.
But eventually I realized that I was missing that intimacy with myself that can only come when there's no one else around.
So when I spoke up for that need, and you were like, of course, like, yes, like sure you were able to create the space in our day where I got that.
And what I witnessed is with that space when you had it, you were able to start feeling more deeply into where it was that you were doing, what felt good to you and where it was that you were doing just what you thought you needed to do because you were supposed to.
And you know, I remember saying to you as a part of this conversation that I started today's podcast with that, if I am your dominant, then you cannot also be your own dominant and your kids can't be your dominant and food can't be your dominant exercise.
Can't be your dominant, your to do list housework.
None of this stuff can be the thing that's in charge of you.
I need you to follow me and allow me to lead you because you can't follow multiple things or people at the same time.
Right? Yeah.
So I started looking at my life through that lens of what needs to be a certain way in order for me to feel OK.
That was a tough question for you to ask.
Yeah.
And certain things I could see easily and other things took a lot of time to see because I wasn't willing to see them.
I wasn't willing to admit the control that I was under from this part of myself that I felt like I was in a battle with.
So how is self control limited your experience of submission? Well, when I started to look at the areas of my life that had to be a certain way in order for me to feel ok, it was very eye opening.
I mean, we're talking like back in the day, um, I came from a house that was always clean and I saw my mom clean the house every week.
Eventually when she was working, I was the one when I was home cleaning the house every week.
And so this pattern was ingrained in me of like the house has to be cleaned every week without even realizing it.
Um, in my fitness, the workout needed to come first thing in the day in order for me to feel ok, nutrition, I needed to eat the good foods in order to feel ok.
And I, like I judged certain foods.
Um, I needed my kids to feel happy in order for me to feel ok.
I needed you to be happy with me in order for me to feel ok, like all of these things is, are, um, putting my life in the hands of something else, right? So there's this part of me that is feeling like I'm controlling my world around me.
When really, I'm a slave to this ego inside of my head.
I didn't feel completely happy.
I didn't feel completely free.
I was allowing my ego to DM every aspect of my life.
The house cleaning.
One is a, is a good example of this in a couple ways.
One of them, and this is again, something I remember pointing out to you in the past, you most definitely wanted to have a house that was always clean, especially if we were gonna have company.
Absolutely.
And especially if that company was gonna be your, your parents and your mother.
Oh, it was anybody, I'll admit it.
But that house had to look as though no one lived there kind of.
Yeah.
But then at the same time when you would clean the house, it wasn't like I could tell you didn't actually want to be doing the cleaning.
You wanted the end result.
But the way that you would clean would be like doing laundry.
But then all the clean laundry would be left unfolded or things would get picked up and put in a different place but not organized and put away laundry had its own classification.
That's not house cleaning.
So when you would do these things though, it was more about the appearance of clean.
So you felt ok with the way that it looked from the outside and it was way less about the, an authentic desire to just have things tidied and put away.
You know, I, I don't really know what to say to that one because I would say it was an authentic desire to have it neat and put away because I like the appearance of a clean house.
That's just, that is a desire.
It was like, what was going on internally inside of me.
If there was the chaos of a messy house around me, I just did not feel ok.
And so I would choose to clean over, spend time with you.
Sometimes I would choose to clean over spending time with my kids.
And it, I say choose, but it didn't really feel like a choice because it was coming from this deep pattern inside of me that I wasn't even aware of.
So in our coaching practice and in the work that we do teaching people, one of the things that we say quite frequently is that surrender has to come before submission.
And in all of this, all of these ways that you would exert all of this self control and kind of limit your own experience of life.
Keep yourself small.
There was, there was a bigger letting go that needed to happen beyond me in order for you to really be able to follow me.
And well, I guess let's start there.
How does surrender to you feel different or necessary to submission? Surrender to me is recognizing that I don't actually control all the things that I thought I controlled.
But more importantly, it's identifying the ways that I didn't even know I was controlling my own experience.
Because if I'm controlling my own experience, I, I can't allow someone, I can't submit to someone else.
I can't allow someone else to lead me.
Because if I'm operating under this box of control, there is no room for a man to step in and take the lead.
And so because I said yes to submission to you, the desire was to follow you.
And over time, I had to face down all the ways that I allowed something else, another organization to be my dominant.
And then like I already said, the ways that I operated from my ego.
And why was that a lot? And at the point I'm at now I, I like look back and I'm like, what the fuck? Like who was I like who was I trying to be? I don't even know like it's like I was this little girl just trying to be protected and loved and cherished and adored and seen for who I was.
And I didn't even know myself and looking back like all those things that controlled me, like I allowed that like I had a part in it, which is partly why um it felt so hard to let go of them too because they were my safety.
It's how I protected myself in the world.
And if I'm protecting myself, you can't protect me real, I mean completely.
And so this journey for me has, has been looking in the mirror and being willing to see me through the eyes that you see me through.
So I could start to love myself and fall in love with this thing we call the ego.
And that allowed me to start to drop those walls and notice with a new set of eyes, these subtle ways that I was living a life as a slave to this ego, which didn't feel good.
One of the ways that you, I remember you coming to your own understanding eventually that this played out was you, you really noticed yourself not having room for me.
You kinda mentioned this briefly, like not having room for me to lead you or to take care of you because you had taken care of yourself, not having room to let me show you anything because you already figured out, figured it out what was what everything was, what it meant.
So a lot of this meaning making and a lot of this self control, the inner figure out, figuring out that you would do.
You had this series of moments where you realized that by keeping yourself small, by living in your ego, which you were doing to protect yourself, to keep yourself safe from what felt like if you didn't do those things, something was definitely gonna go terribly wrong, right? But in doing that, I remember specifically when you had the moment where you realized that the same things that kept you small also kept me out and kept you from really experiencing all of my love.
Yes, because you, we talked about this just a little earlier today.
You lived a lot of your life by the mantra of, I gotta get my stuff done.
I sure did.
You were, you were domed by your to do list.
That was really just this never ending thing in your head of perfection that you were chasing, right? And I didn't know any other way of living.
I looking back, I call it survival mode because it was from one task to another.
It was from, you know, at one point in my life, it was 5 a.
m.
gym, get home, get myself ready, breakfast, kids, breakfast, drop them at school, go to work, go pick them up, get them to their activities, have dinner and go to bed like there was no room for what I wanted for myself.
And I didn't even realize that maybe a little bit on the weekends.
And so when my life was that full, my mind was also constantly being used.
So the statement that I've said before is I didn't know what I didn't know it's that my life was so full that I couldn't even fathom how it could be better.
And you also couldn't have room to follow my lead when all of your moments were already full of things that you had decided you needed to do.
That's where like anything that I would do to try to set you more free because a lot of the beginning of our dumb sub dynamic was about me trying to slow you down.
We, we did a whole episode about this a while back, but I would try to slow you down and you would just take all that energy and put it somewhere else.
Yeah, you created space in my life and I would fill it with something, a distraction.
Yeah.
So my, my approach was to continually remove things from your life.
But I realized at a certain point in doing that, that I couldn't just like I could take responsibilities out of your life like things you didn't have to do anymore, but I couldn't just by commanding you.
I couldn't stop you from making yourself think that you had to be doing something all the time.
Exactly.
You've said to me before that there's a difference between feeling like you are being controlled by your own mind, which is how you felt like a lot of your life was lived and now being able to feel like you're in control of your mind.
Your mind is in service to you now.
Yeah, I like to say it um that I was a slave to my mind before and now my mind serves me what did it take to make that shift? A lot of work? A lot of self reflection, a lot of slowing down enough to catch.
Yeah, the feeling that was coming up.
So for example, am I operating under I have to clean today or I actually want to clean today and you know, they sound similar, but it's the internal experience of feeling like I'm only gonna be OK if this gets done and then I can feel good and getting to the root of what's causing that feel, that felt experience of I have to have my house clean in order to feel ok, or I have to stick to this routine in order for the for me to feel ok.
And so it's a lot of being willing to look at patterns and be honest with myself in a way that I wasn't willing to before and bring a curiosity and patience to listening for some answers sometimes because I could sit there and be like, why do I feel like I have to clean in order for my self to feel? Ok, you might get a response of like, because your mom said so be like, hm, that's interesting.
I wonder why I believe that now, you know, I did a lot of that kind of thing um in order to connect with the internal experience that I was so disconnected from the emotional experience of life that is connected to the, the spiritual experience of life and I had to just keep at it.
It's a really common theme.
I know it was true for you that you felt like you had to be in control.
But at the same time being in control all the time didn't feel good.
Exactly.
So there, like there's some cognitive dissonance that you would experience because you'd be exhausted from having to be, to make all the decisions.
But then you also couldn't let go of control of the decisions, right? And no surprise here, folks, fitness and nutrition was a huge piece for me in my life for a long time.
And I could sit there and watch you choose to either work out or not choose to work out.
And I'd be like, how does he not feel like he has to work out today? Not completely consciously, but that feel was in me, right? It came out more as you were upset with me because I wasn't working out, which was really a projection because you felt so driven that you had to do it every day.
So if I didn't, every day, then you were upset with me because I wasn't doing it the way you felt like you had to.
Yeah, that was part of it.
Absolutely.
Um, I kind of lost my train of thought where I was going with that one.
Well, there's this whole dichotomy between the need to be in control and then the inability to let go of control that I know left you and I know leaves a lot of women feeling very stuck.
Yeah.
It's, I really don't know how else to say it but it's like feeling this thing and for me that was exercise that I had to do it no matter what.
And I didn't know how to stop that.
And to be honest, for a long time I thought I was just gifted with self-discipline, like I decide to do it and I'm going to do it.
My ego hid it from me very well because let's be real.
You know, I was definitely coping with something, but we don't really look at something like exercise as an addiction, but there was definitely some internal um unhealthy patterns attached to the exercise and controlling my body, which controls my life experience in a way.
And, but also, you know, eventually getting to the point where I recognize that this pattern is there and feeling like I don't know how to get rid of it and you would share with me like, follow me in it and I'd be like, yep.
But internally I'm like, I can't, I can't let go of this thing that is dominating me.
And gosh, that was a struggle for a long time.
And I can't say that I don't have days where I have some of those internal thoughts that overthinking that ego pattern trying to get me hooked into, get that exercise done, get your walking in otherwise you're gonna get fat.
Like I still have some of that sometimes.
But now I have an ability to catch those thoughts and dismiss them and not allow them to create an internal conflict that disrupts um my freedom.
You said something that was really important.
The I have to do this or this or this or I'm going to get fat.
That's what I believed because that, that paradox between exhausted, tired of being in control.
But also can't let go of control where people will think like you did.
I'm just a very, I'm a hyper responsible person and so I do whatever it is I decide to do or some people will call themselves a control freak.
Some people call themselves O CD because they're, they're obsessive about, you know, having to have things a certain way.
But if you get underneath it, there's always, always fear driving it and continually, I've, I've watched you become aware of the fears, whether it was around food and exercise or having the house clean or any other number of things, your relationship with your kids, whatever the tasks might be, they had to get done or things had to be a certain way or else something terrible was definitely going to happen.
Yeah, worst case scenarios.
So we, we've called that catastrophizing, which is really just, I don't even know if that's a word.
No, it is.
Maybe it's one that I made up but that whole concept is taking whatever is happening like the house isn't clean.
What are you afraid of? So, what would be a fear that would come up for you? Like in the house not being clean? Oh, gosh, that's so long ago.
I, I don't even know if it was fear driven.
It was, it was attached to just feeling ok with myself.
It probably was attached to, for me attached to feeling worthy.
There was also some fear of being judged.
Sure.
If it wasn't up to a standard, I judged myself most certainly.
But yeah, a fear of if someone else saw it that they would think that I was a shitty person.
Yeah, a dirty person.
Yeah.
Oh Yeah.
And there again, like, it would be the worst fuel in it.
Like, like I was a worthless human being, like, as bad as I could imagine it.
And again, like it wasn't that these, these thoughts, these words were always circulating through my mind.
It's the inner experience of the feeling that I was, I was even disconnected from.
But that was still driving my life experience.
You had no idea of what was happening inside of you.
You couldn't see those fears, but they were definitely there and they were running your life.
They were the force that was, they were the dominant force in your life, right? And for me, you've heard me say it before, but the crucial piece was slowing down in order to connect with my internal experience of what was going on.
So, on the other side of slowing down and as you started to shed light or I helped you shed light on where some of these fears were controlling you and really where the way that those fears controlled, you kept us out of connection, you were able to start letting go of them and experience.
Well, what, so what's, what has the experience been for you on the other side of letting go of control? Like escaping that paradox of I have to be in control and they don't want to be in control.
I don't want to be in charge, but I have to keep everything the way that I think it has to be when you've been able to break out of that because you've been able to drop the fear.
What is, how does that feel? How does it feel different because it's not like we live in a messy slobby house now? No.
So if we're using the cleaning for an example, um, I still prefer the house all in order, clean, whatever, but I don't feel um, internally bad if you will, I don't have an a uh, internal chaos going on because I have the shoes sitting on the floor or there's unfolded laundry sitting in a basket or there's a plate in the sink.
And I notice less of that.
I still notice it, but there's just not a ill feeling in my body anymore.
Like it's cool.
I'll get to it when I get to it and I know what it feels like to clean when I want to.
I just did it yesterday.
It was like, oh, what a great way to spend an hour moving my body.
I'm gonna clean the closet and the bathroom and turn on music and enjoy making it look good.
Again.
It's a very, very different experience when I don't have the attachment to the piece of me that I guess felt unworthy and lived in fear because you're doing it out of desire and anything will feel different when you're doing it because you want to instead of because you have to or especially because you're afraid of what happens if you don't, right? Cause that's an obligation, an obligation is one of the things I told you at the very beginning of this dumb sub dynamic that I was going to kill in this relationship and you sure have because obligation will only drive performance and that really gets at a good point here, which is submission without surrender can be, which is what a lot of people think submission is, right? Just I boss you around, right? That's what it means to a lot of people to be a submissive and for a lot of people, it's a boss you around in the bedroom and that's all that they think that's possible in dominance and submission.
And because of the way that like your actions can be driven by fear, they can be driven by obligation, they can be driven by trying to be a good girl.
And please me, even if you don't wanna do something, if you continue to do those things anyway, it can be an experience that can be very contractive.
Absolutely, very limiting.
And I've lived my whole life limiting myself.
Right? And so dominance and submission in that manifestation of it would just be like taking the version of you that you've already limited so deeply and then limiting, limiting it even more, that would not feel good.
And that's why people think that submission means being a doormat and being abused and, and see it as being something so negative when, when it's seen through that lens of being forced to do things you don't wanna do, right? And in my experience, it's very different from that.
You know, when I started to realize that I was dumbing myself, I was controlling my life experience.
I had myself in such a small box and how that happened, it doesn't matter because what's important is being able to see it.
And then when I started to realize like, oh wow, I don't even really desire and I allowed myself to start, I started connecting with these pieces of me that I know you saw in me.
Um But I didn't have the felt internal coldness.
I didn't have this whole connected feeling of my being And as I started to keep expressing the desire of more a bigger life experience.
And you were reflecting all of that to me like, yes, bring all of yourself.
You were pointing out pieces of me that I had suppressed.
You were therefore giving me permission to accept them for myself, like energetically and spiritually, I only continue to feel bigger.
This isn't a physic, this isn't about just the physical dominance and submission.
Sure.
It can be in the role play of the physical.
Absolutely.
And you can maybe experience a little bit beyond by sticking more with a role play if that's your thing.
But I'm just here to share that.
It can be so much more and it is a so much bigger experience for me when I'm willing to take off the lid of my own control and then follow, right? Because if you've got yourself in you, you've said this a couple times today, like in a box.
So when you say in a box, I know what you're talking about is you have defined parameters of what's, how it's OK for you to be what you can do and what you can't do, what's good, what's bad and you just put yourself in the ok, good acceptable box and you only do those things and you only will let yourself experience those things.
Yes.
And side note, this goes back to my childhood and when I was trying to get the love and connection from my, mainly my parents at the beginning, I started to create that box of what's OK.
What's not OK.
I can be this.
I can't be that.
Yeah.
So when you would put yourself into that box, when you would limit yourself in those ways, there wasn't space.
We've, I'm kind of bringing this back around to something we talked about a little earlier.
There wasn't space for me to say this is how we're going to live our lives or this is what I see is best for us unless what I brought to you fit inside of the box that you'd already created, right? So in helping you take that box apart, which is really the process of surrender, the process of letting go of control and thinking that you know what's right important word of thinking and you know, this isn't, again, this isn't about me making me right and you wrong.
It's about opening up your experience of life.
That other things may be possibilities that you've only judged as wrong because of beliefs that you absorbed at some point earlier in your life.
Yep.
And they felt like facts.
So this is the experience of surrender, expanding, being a more expansive experience, then submission, if submission is just me taking the box that you've already put yourself in and then putting you in an even smaller one because now I, I just, I supposed to control you because I'm your dominant.
So I'm just going to boss you around a little bit and make that box even smaller just for you to get what you want.
Right? So surrender versus submission for me means helping you escape from that box and set you free from all of the ways that you limit yourself.
And to allow me then to actually set the limits for you for me to be able to tell you like go have this experience of life, go enjoy yourself, go have fun instead of worrying about getting the house clean just because it's Tuesday, right? I have been through this like expansion and contraction feel for a long time with um pushing that edge of control on the ego and and this is getting at those deeper rooted things for me because we all have them.
But some of them for me um well, a lot of them for me came down to sexuality pieces and just being able to really lean into what is accepting my full sexuality.
Mean, what like my own sexual essence, what does that look like? Who am I, you know, ridding the beliefs of what is acceptable and what is not in society and religion and all of that.
And so, you know, we have a lot of um you bringing forth something you see in me and a truth in me and I'll be like either immediate resistance or OK.
But what about? And so I, you know, I've been through this journey of like allowing the, you gotta pull me back.
And when I speak about contraction and you know, pushing that edge, it's, it's wanting a bigger life experience and that's what it feels like to expand.
But I couldn't not see the times when I rubber band back into contraction.
And every time that contraction happened, it's going back into the safe feel of control from the ego internally controlling my experience again, letting fear jump in.
Yeah.
And gosh, this pattern has been going on.
But getting um I would say less frequent but some of them more intense on the bigger aspects of ways that I've controlled myself.
But even more recently, you know, a lot of this is a felt experience.
And so I tried my best to put it into words.
But even more recently, I've started to recognize that I'd be a fool to keep falling for the ego, which means I'd be a fool to not fully submit to where you want to lead me.
And along with some of this, I often get taken back to the story of Adam and Eve in the Bible.
Yeah, I don't know where the tears are coming from right now but of like this like this deep longing in me to, to be in what feels like if I'm putting words to it, like constant oneness with you.
And you know, this Eve was, you know, God created Adam in his image and out of Adam, his rib was taken to create Eve and for me, it feels like all I wanna do is be back inside of you.
And that's where this spiritual aspect of this hit.
Like I've uncovered this deep longing, that is just a feeling.
And that's why I say I'd be a fool to follow myself to follow that ego when I can fully have the felt experience that my submission to you is meant for my soul.
Yeah, like I feel that in my entire body that it's the truth for us.
And that's exactly why this kind of relationship has to be led so much more consciously.
Then what many people assume that it's gonna take by the dominant because anyone listening to this, especially anyone watching this can see the emotion and feel it in you and how deep and meaningful this is.
Yeah.
And you know, you say you would be a fool not to follow me where I wanna take you.
I would be a fool to let you continue to live in fear and to limit your experience of life rather than use the authority you've granted me to set you free.
Absolutely.
Because look at the feeling that any man would ever want from his partner is what you are saying here right now.
Any man that this is what men crave is a woman who's so in love with him, so devoted to him that she will follow him anywhere I want that for everyone.
Hm.
And this is why I think men just miss it with dominance in the opportunity that it really presents when you can be in relationship with someone who wants to follow you and who you want to lead.
You can make everything in both of your lives becomes something extremely special if you have two people who are willing to follow this path.
Yeah, for me, you know, that really meant, yeah, of course, I said slowing down, but it meant connecting with my internal experience, which means my body, which means my soul.
And I think, you know, dominance and submission, just like religion can miss the mark.
I think you can arrive at this depth of life experience through so many different avenues, just like you say the word spiritual to someone.
And that means what religion might mean to me.
And I, I think it's easy to live a small version of call it religious spiritual or a version of like dominance and submission, which to me is spiritual, but to stay in the small lane if you will in any of those things and truly even miss the depth of connection to God.
We said this just earlier this week, all of the deeply spiritual experiences that we have had that you've had specifically have been experiences that you've had when you've been out of control.
Absolutely, which requires you to feel safe enough to be out of control.
First of all, but then also open enough to receive whatever might be there for you when you are out of control, right? And you know, when you, when I heard you say that to me a while ago, I can't argue with that.
And so when I can look at my life and be like, huh the most free I have felt the most fun, the most joy, the most happiness, the most pleasure I have felt are all when I have been out of control.
Why would I want to control myself? Why would I not want to submit to you? I'd be a fool not to because my life is better because of you because my willingness to follow.
Yes, but it's because of your ability to see me to lead me to have your own connection to spirit and open your heart to me.
Yeah, I think this conversation is gonna help a lot of people see dominance and submission and self control from a very different perspective.
I hope so.
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So thank you for listening today.
Yes.
Thank you for being here with us
