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Welcome to the Infinite Devotion Podcast.
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In today's episode, Dawn and I discuss five tips for integrating dominant
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submissive dynamics into loving, healthy relationships.
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We talk about some of the things that we've learned in our experience together
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and that we've learned in coaching and mentoring lots of other couples
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about why it can be challenging to move dominance and submission outside of the bedroom.
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We talk about some of the reasons that the dominant needs to take charge and lead
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the relationship and what it's like to let go of control both for the dominant
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and the submissive. There's a lot more here.
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It was a really deep conversation with a lot of great ideas and we hope you enjoy.
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If you enjoy our podcast, please take a moment to leave a review for it on Spotify, Apple
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podcasts or Google podcasts and help us help other people find the Infinite
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Today, we are going to talk through some tips for couples or for people who want to
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integrate dominance and submission into loving long-term relationships.
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The tips we're going to talk about are things we've learned, some of them the
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hard way and some of them just through experience and practice and figuring out
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for ourselves over five years what worked and what didn't.
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But also some of what we've learned helping other couples is they've tried to
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integrate these things too because we get to draw on our own experience and
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what we share here is always from our experience.
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But a part of our experience is working with and helping other people too.
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We get to learn a lot from other people who have different relationships and
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different challenges than us too.
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Yes, that being said, there are some very similar ones that everybody runs into.
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And the stuff we're going to talk about today are really things that are common across
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pretty much every single circumstance that we've faced and that we've seen
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others face too.
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And the first one of those tips is that
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dominance and submission as a way of relating to each other is different than
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dominance and submission in the bedroom.
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Yes, very much so.
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One of the biggest challenges that a lot of people face when they start in this is
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that one person or the other or sometimes both have a whole lifetime of fantasies
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in their head.
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Things that they wanted out of dumb sub ways that they've imagined that it could
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Some of them have even sexual experiences in like bedroom kind of DS dynamics.
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And while those things are fun and they can still be a part of the relationship
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relating to each other like for us relating to each other outside of the bedroom
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doesn't work the same way as doing it in the bedroom.
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Because bedroom only dumb sub doesn't require as much emotional intentionality.
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First of all, we have to be a lot more intentional with how we love each other
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and how we handle the relationship when we are exchanging power in ways that aren't
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sexual. It's not just all command and control.
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No, but I'm just going to say this that there is the emotional aspect in the
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It's just way more expansive because it's out of a scene.
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And so it's really easy for some from what I understand to kind of turn it on
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and off in the bedroom and kind of go to that different place.
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But when you are trying to bring this into your day to day way of relating,
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it's going to feel different even though some of the concept is the same.
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That's my experience.
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The concept is the same. Talk a little more about that.
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The lead and the follow. Simply put, the surrender and the take charge.
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That concept is the same. It's just the depth to what you touch.
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Yeah. And bedroom-based or BDSM-based dumb subplay that is sexual only,
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that has that kind of beginning and end and the start and stop.
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It doesn't have to care as much about how does this impact our love?
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How does this impact our relationship?
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Because you can do something, recap it, rehash it, work through what went well
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and what didn't and move on with life.
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Yes, if that's how you choose to do it.
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I also see, that's what the, I would say, perspective from the outside,
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unless you want to touch the loving and devotional aspect outside of the bedroom.
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That's definitely one of the ways that it seems to be portrayed.
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I just wouldn't call it without emotion in the bedroom because you can run into,
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I've heard one of them call it landmines.
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I mean, traumas can be uncovered through the kinky side of sex.
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And there can be, and there is for us, still that depth there.
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But what I would also say, I heard someone share with me that they were told by someone in the BDSM world
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that it has to start in the bedroom.
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And that's a false thing.
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Like, dominance and submission has to be bedroom first in this persons.
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Yeah, in their mind.
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And I disagree with that.
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Like, we were very vanilla everywhere.
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And for us, this started in the way of relating.
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And it only made the bedroom pretty easy when we wanted to take it there.
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So what do you think makes it hard for people who maybe enjoy some bedroom dumb sub?
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And then they try to bring it into daily life, maybe into 24/7,
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and they run into challenges.
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Well, so if you look at it, if you look at like bedroom part of your life
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compared to everything else in a time comparison, very small in the bedroom
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compared to the other parts of your life.
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And so you're living more of these other parts of your lives.
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And you're living from a habitual pattern of relating, of habitual behavior patterns
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that go all the way back to our early years of life, unless you've unraveled some of them
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and worked to change them.
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Like, you might have done that.
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But so now, you know, when you want to all of a sudden start saying,
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"You're in charge of everything."
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For my side, I'm going to have these things coming up in my mind that have always been there
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in response to your leadership because it is a penetration.
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So with the direction and getting penetrated, I'm going to have some sort of response to it.
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And until you make the unconscious conscious, that's what's going to happen.
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Right, because when I say that bedroom only dumb sub doesn't have to deal with emotions,
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that's what I'm talking about.
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Yeah, you're going to have emotional stuff that happens sexually, obviously.
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But it's the long term patterns and habits of relating that go all the way back to your very, very earliest years of like how you got love from your parents
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and how you had to act to get your needs met and the ways that you learned how to relate to someone
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in order to get the reaction you wanted from them.
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Those kinds of things all get drawn right out in front of you and put right in your face when you take this from being just something fun you're doing.
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And you move it into like who's the one responsible for everything.
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Right, and that's what we've heard from others in that, you know, they try to do this 24/7 thing and all of a sudden it kind of feels like it blows up.
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That's what's happening.
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Because those unconscious patterns are coming out and so, unless you're like bringing awareness to them and slowing down enough in life to work through them,
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it's going to feel like some landmines, some bombs are going off.
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But even more than those patterns are coming out, you're acting in a way that's directly contrary to everything that your unconscious system believes is true
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that everything your unconscious system believes that it needs to be in order to be loved, to be lovable, to be desirable, whatever it is that's inside of you.
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Like you're going directly against some of those.
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Right, so, you know, for example, like earlier in our world for me in this, like it might have been, I don't remember all the specifics, but it might have been something like,
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I knew you were going to plan a date night.
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And so you would say like, be ready at five o'clock and we're going to leave.
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In the old me, again, I could say it that way, it would have been like, oh my gosh, where are we going?
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And did he consider what I want to eat today and did he consider how many calories I can eat today?
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Because that was a thing before.
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And did he consider this and did he consider that?
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Or all the things that I have to do today and I still need time to get ready.
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And so, I wouldn't necessarily speak up for those things, but it would come forth in maybe my lack of excitement, maybe a little bit of moodiness because all of a sudden I'm feeling these things that are subtle ways of control,
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trying to come to the surface to make me feel okay, but I don't vulgarize them. And so they're in me and it kind of is like doing a like, I don't even know what to call it, but like a back and forth inside of me and it's going to come outside ways when you aren't self aware enough to realize what's going on.
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And that's where I was.
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So those are the kind of little things that can happen in the like starting this outside of the bedroom, which is why it like it really requires some slowing down in a lot of awareness to the smallest little emotional responses.
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And like we've talked about before, a lot of patients with yourself, patients with your partner, and you know, that really actually moves to the second tip I was going to say, which is that immediate unquestioning obedience, especially as an expectation of the dumb sub dynamic is going to work against you in the long run.
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So when I say that, I mean a lot of times couples negotiate out their dumb sub dynamic, they write their contract and they write it in a way that's like how they want it to be.
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One of the things that goes in there a lot of times is like the dominant gets the say in this and this and that and the submissive gets no say in this and this and that.
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And then there are sometimes punishments for if she doesn't follow through and there are expectations of obedience built into these things.
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And it when when it's approached that way, it doesn't account for the fact that sometimes she's not going to want to obey.
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Correct. Even when she wants to want to correct.
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I want to say that again because they got a little bit of like word salad there, but sometimes there's an expectation of obedience.
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And there are going to be times that the submissive is not going to want to obey even though she might really wish that she wanted to obey, that she wanted to follow, that she wanted to do what it is that's being asked of her.
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So dealing with that in like punishing for lack of obedience works against the dumb sub dynamic in the long run.
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Because if you don't work together to get underneath why it is that it feels so challenging to obey and to follow even though she wants to, if you're just like you didn't obey, punish you.
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And never getting past or getting working through the reasons why it doesn't come naturally.
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Right. And I can completely speak from experience there because at the beginning there was a lot of just, I'm going to call it a conscious but unconscious.
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And I'm going to say that I'm not going to be there to please because part of me yes wanted to please you.
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But there was also this unconscious people pleasing going on that I just was not aware of.
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And what's really underneath that is abandoning the self.
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And really are so ingrained into the way of relating to others that it's hard to even see what's going on.
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And so early on for me, I would, people please, until all of a sudden the resentment started and it was like, oh, I can't do that anymore.
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Even though I still want to do this, I'm just also having this emotional response.
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And so when I was able to see that and let go of that attachment to that emotional response, then it's all good.
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And then I can be like, yes sir, like I want to obey in this experience.
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Yeah, resentment is the key there because no amount of negotiating out a dominant submissive dynamic is going to avoid the fact that resentment is the natural response.
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It's what is going to happen if either person is doing something that they don't really want to do.
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And that resentment will build up like poison and it will eventually start coming out as maybe, you know, if it's on the submissive side, acting less and less submissive or feeling less and less like she really wants this dynamic.
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And if it's the dominant, if it's resentment building up on the dominance part, it's going to feel probably less and less like he wants to continue to offer himself and give himself or frustration or anger or all sorts of things.
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Right. And I just want to add that it's a beautiful thing if it happens and comes to the surface because then it can be worked through.
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And so when you have, when you're including this dynamic as part of a relationship that's based in love and devotion and making each other the best they can be and being your best selves, like it's an automatic part of it.
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And like to accept that part of the journey with well, a lot of acceptance and compassion like for yourself or each other.
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It's just part of it, but it's it can be beautiful because you it's expansion.
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It's letting go of a unconscious way of relating that actually keeps you from being yourself.
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So what would you say to a submissive who is maybe agreed to follow a dominant in a certain area of life, like they've made this agreement she wants to follow, he wants to lead this is consensual.
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And then when the time comes to actually do that thing, there's something in her that doesn't want to.
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What would you tell her to how would you tell her to approach that?
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Well, if if it's something that's agreed upon and you're having that emotional, I call emotional responses if you're actually catching it, I call it emotional response.
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You have to vocalize it. And I guess this is assuming that you have a partner who's like actually opening open to receiving this and it's not based on a like,
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or Matt way of submission, but speak up for it and share what is going on inside of you with whatever words you can use to make sense of it.
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It might mean I really want to do what you say, but I am feeling this odd, I don't want to do that right now and I don't understand it.
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It might mean I really want to do what you're asking of me, but I'm feeling afraid right now and I don't know why and I want you to know that.
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Something like that, or it might be a complete like, happen so fast response like, ah, that's a no right now.
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And then all of a sudden you're like, oh shoot, that's not how I actually want to respond.
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So, you know, the way we incorporate this is the true response to the moment.
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That's the feminine integrity is the emotional response and sometimes it doesn't come out pretty.
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You can have an intention, you can think about this and how might I want to respond, but it doesn't always come out pretty.
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I mean, we are hormonal creatures.
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So, I guess that would like to the best of your ability to at least speak to the point of wanting to, but you're having an issue simply put.
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I would say from the dominance perspective to here, be open to and understand the fact that she's not always going to just be able to turn off her own feelings and do what you say.
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Actually, if you expect her to do that, you are actually working against what you want. What you want is for her to follow you because you know that if you lead her, her life will, like you can lead her to somewhere better.
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And you're working against yourself as a dominant if you are expecting her to obey when she doesn't want to.
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If the submissive is detached from her emotional experience, that's never going to lead to an authentic submission.
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It's working through the emotional responses that get you to authenticity, which brings more of her, which allows more of the dominant and it allows an expansion and an experience of life that can only be touched.
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Going through it, going through the fires, going through the deep end, whatever you want to call it.
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Because if you want, like what we both want in our relationship and our dynamic is when there's something where I'm leading and you're following, we want it to be easy.
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Like we want it to be fun. We want it to be something that we're doing together.
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Yes. And if you are having resistance, even though you want to be doing this, then we get way farther by having a part of your submission, be bringing to me the resistance, the authentic resistance that you're feeling.
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Like that's a part of submission is submitting to me your own emotional experience, submitting in terms of like submitting, giving it to me.
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Like you're sending it over. And then I can help you look at why does it feel that way.
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Right. And in my experience, like if I have some resistance, sometimes it literally dissolves just by vocalizing it to you.
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Depending on what it is. And like if you, if there's something bigger underneath it, it might not feel that way necessarily.
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But it definitely has gotten there that when I've ridded most of the emotional poison that was stored from the beginning, that's how I feel.
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If I feel that like, oh, that tenseness, that scariness of uncertainty or whatever come up. And I just share it.
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And sometimes you say the words, I've got you. It's just like it melts it.
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Well, if you think about why it would do that, you have a, there's some, usually some fear behind that. There's, there's some sort of a fear underneath why you would feel a resistance that you don't want to feel.
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That why you would feel hesitation that you actually don't want, where you don't want to hesitate. So if you can bring that to me and I can say, that's an okay thing.
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It's okay that you're afraid. It's okay that you are that you're hesitating. Like I accept that. And I, and I know that that's not what you, how you want this to be.
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Just that acceptance of that can help you feel safe enough to let go of it.
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Or at least to get out why it is you feel afraid. So I can say, all right, I will make sure that that is, that all of this is handled in a way that's respectful of that fear.
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Right. Acceptance of me in what feels like,
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I'll say this way, a challenging emotional state. When I feel acceptance from you in that, that in itself is incredible. Like it, it's so beneficial.
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And that's why, that's why the emotional health of the dominant side being able to be with your challenging emotions without getting triggered by them or making them about myself or reacting to them.
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Like if I can't do that, then I can't help you in any of this stuff that we're talking about here.
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So that's why we talk so much to dominance and why like a whole half, like a half of our entire coaching, mentorship practices working with men to build that inner strength.
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Because we have to be able to hold ourselves together if we're going to hold our partner together as well.
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Yeah. And one thing along the way for me that has always come to mind is like a little girl and her dad.
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If you want to, if you want a point of reference of how, how do I say this?
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How to receive a woman in her emotions is how might a dad receive his little girl who's crying because she got hurt or crying because something broke?
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Her favorite unicorn broke.
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And she's just so distraught over it.
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And like how might a dad receive that? That's to me one of the best analogies of how a man can receive a woman because we have, there's inner child thing here.
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So we have this inner little girl who, unless you've worked through them, is carrying some wounding from her past.
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:31,000
And so when we can be received like a little girl, what is she's crying about her broken unicorn?
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,000
It's just so incredibly healing.
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:59,000
I think to, just to expand on that a little bit, it's when a woman is having an emotional reaction, a lot of times it's the reaction is coming out of not what was done right now, but out of something that was actually from the past.
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:05,000
And it's not really as much about the present moment as it is about what it is bringing up from her past.
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,000
What's getting activated?
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:07,000
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:15,000
And it's just a, it's the similar feel to whatever all of the things from the past that weren't felt still there.
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:35,000
Yeah, so if you are in that like crying because something happened and I can see that the reaction seems bigger than the event, for example, like I can say there's probably something bigger going on here.
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,000
And you probably don't need to be fixed. You just need to be held.
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,000
But don't say that.
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:47,000
Don't say you probably don't need to be fixed. We don't want to hear that.
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,000
00:29:48,000 --> 00:30:08,000
Like we get so much farther by just coming up to you, wrapping you in our arms or having you drop to your knees and lay your head on my lap and bring you into the posture of devotion into the posture of submission so that I can hold you.
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:15,000
And you can feel taken care of and safe and accepted in that experience rather than me trying to stop you from having it.
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,000
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:27,000
And even if like I can see what's going on here and I want to help you with it, that's for later.
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:42,000
That's for tomorrow or next week, not like when the reaction is happening, it's like it's the time just to just to be present just for acceptance of the present state.
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,000
00:30:43,000 --> 00:31:08,000
All of that to say, if you just use dominance because you want to shut her up or stop her from having big emotions or to get her to do everything you say without asking any questions, you might have fun with that for a little while, but eventually so much resentment is going to build that it's just going to blow everything up.
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:25,000
So work, I guess the final answer I'd like to say to that is work into your dynamic, some sort of a means or a way to have those reactions respected.
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,000
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:41,000
The times that she wants to follow and can't or it doesn't feel right to have those respected and accepted and worked through and make that a part of the dynamic rather than wishing that never happened.
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,000
Or ignoring it.
00:31:43,000 --> 00:32:03,000
The third tip that I wanted to bring up today is that the leadership of a dominant submissive dynamic always needs to come from the dominant from the the D side of the slash.
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:13,000
And this is very different than how a lot of men grow up in today's culture.
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:32,000
We we tend to be raised around a lot of equality and the ideas around equity and everyone is the same and everyone is independent and we're supposed to come to consensus.
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,000
And it can be really damn hard.
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:42,000
It's been one of the hardest things for me and for most of the guys that I work with.
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:48,000
It's really hard to tell a woman what to do.
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,000
Even when she's asking you to tell her what to do.
00:32:52,000 --> 00:33:08,000
It doesn't seem like it makes sense and I think a lot of women underestimate how challenging that is for men to boss a woman around when she's asking you to please boss me around.
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:20,000
Well this also kind of goes back to what we talked about first is if it's one thing to be able to do that sexually in the bedroom with ease but then to take that into your daily life.
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,000
Like it's just so much bigger.
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:31,000
It involves so many more things if you actually want this to include all aspects of your life.
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:49,000
I guess one other side note to this is if you're starting start slow because 24/7 for us at the beginning included things outside the bedroom all the time but it wasn't everything.
00:33:49,000 --> 00:34:03,000
So 24/7 to us means that I'm always the dominant and you're always the submissive especially at the beginning it didn't mean that I had total control over everything all the time.
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:13,000
It just meant that this dynamic was like a thread that ran through our lives and it was a part of every piece of the way that we interacted with each other.
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:19,000
Right and we only incorporated more threads over time.
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:33,000
But back to the point of the man leading it's important even when the woman is the one saying I want to be your submissive.
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,000
I want you to be my dominant and he's like what?
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:43,000
That's the opposite of how this started for us because I was the one who brought it to you.
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:51,000
Because of that I've always been the one who's been leading and steering this dynamic.
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,000
00:34:53,000 --> 00:35:03,000
But I would say the scales tilt really heavily in the other direction most of the time when at least in the people that we encounter.
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:17,000
It tends to be a lot more women seeking the feeling of submission and looking for a man or looking for their man to step into that dominant role.
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:32,000
Right. Because the same reasons that you were alluding to we don't need to define it because it's so big and expansive of why men kind of have a hard time stepping up and taking the lead.
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:40,000
The women are affected by all of those same things in society and history and whatever is there.
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:48,000
Your culture, your early life years, things are passed down generation after generation.
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:55,000
And so what seems to happen is this like an item experience this.
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,000
I wish I could have.
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:05,000
You led me here because I was so unconscious but had a natural submission to me.
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:16,000
But for some women they have this like I'm just going to put the words to it that I imagine because obviously I can't speak from experience here.
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,000
But like this little inkling, this little burning of desire.
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:26,000
For some I hear it's been there since they were a little girl where they seek this sort of relationship.
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:32,000
And some of them heard about it in their romance novels and some of them, you know, wherever they'll hear it.
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:38,000
But there's something in a lot of women that they want to be taken care of.
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,000
They don't want to have to be in charge.
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:52,000
They want to reprieve. And the words that people put to that can look a lot different.
00:36:52,000 --> 00:37:04,000
But I believe there's something about the feminine innocence that creates that allows that.
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:15,000
So in those cases where you have the woman who maybe has wanted this for a long time or maybe discovers it and realizes it's something she needs in her life.
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:21,000
And she either meets someone and introduces this or she goes to a partner.
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:28,000
We have quite a few people we work with who have been in very long-term relationships.
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:39,000
40 plus years in a couple cases of time together where one partner or the other is coming and saying, "Hey, I want this."
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:49,000
And if it's the woman bringing it to the man who the submissive bringing it to the dominant,
00:37:49,000 --> 00:38:00,000
there has to be a point at which, relatively early, where the man takes ownership of the dominance of the relationship.
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:09,000
Because out of his own desire, like he has to find what dominance is for him.
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:18,000
And step into that and take charge for his own sake. Because it's never going to feel good to either one of you.
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:33,000
If the submissive introduces this dom sub dynamic and the dominant agrees to go along with it and it turns out to be he's just trying to give her everything she wants.
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:45,000
Yeah, and early in relationships, that might seem appealing, but it actively works against building this dynamic for real.
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:50,000
And yeah, it's...
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:51,000
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,000
That's all I can say.
00:38:53,000 --> 00:39:08,000
Well, it can't feel authentic to a submissive. Submission can't feel authentic if your dominant is just doing it for you.
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,000
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:16,000
Because the whole energy of submission is letting go of control. And if you are the one deciding what you want, how you want it, how it needs to be,
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:28,000
and all of that is just being done for you, you're actually the dominant. Right. You're the one in charge setting the tone, setting the desires for what happens.
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:40,000
And so if you are a man where a woman comes to you and says, "I want to be a submissive, I want to be your submissive, I want you to be my dominant,"
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:51,000
you've got to figure out what that means for you and step into that because dominance in a loving relationship isn't just about command and control.
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:58,000
It's not just about bossing her around and it's not just about finding out what she wants and giving it to her. Right.
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:06,000
It is about being able to go somewhere and bring her along with you. Right.
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:13,000
If you're just trying to find out what she wants and give it to her, it's going to feel like chasing the wind because what we want is going to change. Right.
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:18,000
Day to day, moment to moment, sometimes we don't even know.
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,000
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:33,000
And this is where what you want and what you need or what's important are going to be very different things.
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:46,000
That's a part of my role as the dominant, as your dominant, as your leader, is to look at the big picture when you get stuck in the moment and in the whims, which is where you belong.
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:54,000
Because where the feminine lives is in the constant unfolding of the moment to moment experiences.
00:40:54,000 --> 00:41:09,000
That means that when everything is going well for you, when you are living your most alive, arous, filled life, you're going to actually be tuned out from what's best for you in the long run.
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:26,000
Yeah. And so I need to be able to be leading you forward and introducing you, bringing you into new experiences, bringing you in a direction where you get to be a part of what I'm creating for us.
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:34,000
And you are co-creating it by bringing that aliveness into those moments. Right.
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:48,000
And if you're a guy listening to this podcast and you have desires for this or you have a woman who says I want you to be my dominant and you're like, I really don't know where to start.
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,000
You can help you.
00:41:52,000 --> 00:42:06,000
Honestly, I am your billboard. That's how I feel because I know everyone listening to this doesn't really know who I was before.
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:21,000
But I just, I was very vanilla. I was very just unconscious. But I had a willingness to follow you. And like all you had to do was say, I want what's best for you.
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:27,000
I want what's best for us. And I want to take us there.
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:39,000
That's like summing up how I received you in it. And I was like, yeah, I want that too. And we had to deal with the bumps along the way.
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:54,000
And it is one of the most rewarding things that I get to do in making this our life and our business is helping men step into this dominance from a place of really grounded self confidence.
00:42:54,000 --> 00:43:03,000
And I take a lot of pride in being very good at it in helping men see what they can't see.
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:12,000
And being able to show them a path to a kind of confidence that they maybe never even knew was available to them.
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:18,000
And I witness you doing it and it's just incredible.
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:31,000
So tip number three, the dominant needs to lead the dynamic even if the submissive is the one who introduces it.
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:44,000
The fourth tip that I wanted to bring up today is that even though this is a dominant submissive dynamic and there is a natural leader and a follower,
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:56,000
there is a mutual surrender that is necessary in order for this to be done in a way that's healthy and loving.
00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:03,000
So I want to lay out what I mean when I say a mutual surrender.
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:11,000
It's pretty obvious the surrender of the submissive.
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:30,000
Like you as a submissive you are consensually agreeing to be led to let go of certain parts of your life and to allow me to take charge and bring you somewhere rather than you deciding for yourself.
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:39,000
Right and it's so much deeper than that at the same time and that makes me think about that would be another wonderful podcast.
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,000
Talk a little bit about that to like the deeper part of it.
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:50,000
Well there's the surrender to, I'm speaking from my experience.
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:58,000
There's the surrender to you in your leadership and your guidance in your human form of what our lives look like.
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:06,000
Where we're going to live, what we're going to do, sometimes what we're eating for dinner, like all those things, right?
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:23,000
But then there's a bigger aspect if you want to experience it which touches the spiritual, which connects you to the infinite in ways that I didn't even know was possible.
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:40,000
I didn't even know was an experience of the world because of the way God was explained to me by religion is way different than the God that I've been willing to connect with through you and this dynamic together.
00:45:40,000 --> 00:46:04,000
And so there's a surrender to life at large that to me comes through the surrender to you when you're connected to, I'm just going to say it this way, your own essence and consciousness.
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:17,000
Yeah, thank you for that because it's, it's an important point that we get as on the dominant side of these relationships we get to be an embodiment of the truth.
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:18,000
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:25,000
Like we get to be, if we're doing this from a connected place, like you said,
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:41,000
if this isn't connected to a really deeply heartfelt loving grounded inner consciousness, this gets toxic and manipulative really quick, it could.
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,000
00:46:43,000 --> 00:47:03,000
But from a very strong inner sense of groundedness, I get to be the truth for you, I get to be consciousness for you so that you can not have to decide.
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:17,000
So we talked before about how many women experience decision fatigue in their lives just get worn out and exhausted by all of the decisions they have to make.
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:37,000
And when the dominant can step forward and be a decision maker in a way that lets her let go of having to figure things out for herself, it's not just telling her what to do.
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:43,000
It's actually relieving a very existential weight from her.
00:47:43,000 --> 00:48:05,000
And it lets her experience, it lets you experience me not just as someone who's telling you what to do, but as someone who is really guiding your life in a way that has the long term vision and truth of the best possible path for your life at heart and in mind.
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:10,000
And I'm working to bring that into into creation.
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:17,000
What I want to add to that in our experience and we can go deeper into this in another time.
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:26,000
But what I feel also when I say surrender to what did I say the universe, what did I to you in the world?
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,000
You said to life at large.
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:35,000
A better way to say that is surrendering to my own soul's purpose.
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:42,000
That's what I feel has come through my submission to you.
00:48:42,000 --> 00:49:02,000
But it's also because of who you are in your own essence. And I say essence because of your deep connection to the truth and ability to bring forth the truth of my soul into the world.
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:09,000
It feels like you bring it into existence because it was so shut down.
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:38,000
And that's why for the back to this, this tip, why mutual surrender is so important because to go that deep, to go as deep as we've gone with this together, I had damn well better be connected to the actual truth that I'm experiencing in you and not just what I want.
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,000
Exactly because that won't feel good to me.
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:58,000
No. And this is where this really gets at the really deep crux of the difference between manipulative abusive, like emotionally abusive relationships and healthy, dominant submissive dynamics.
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:11,000
Because from the outside looking in, both of those things can have the more dominant partner telling the more submissive partner what to do.
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:28,000
But in the unhealthy case, it's usually because the more dominant partner is trying to do something to or get something from the submissive partner.
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:32,000
Yeah, which can be an unconscious pattern.
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:52,000
Usually is. But in, in a, in this sort of healthy, loving, spiritually connected, dominant submissive dynamic, when I'm telling you what to do, it's because I can see the truth of what the best thing is for you.
00:50:52,000 --> 00:51:03,000
And when I'm commanding you, it's not because I'm trying to get something from you, it's because I'm moving you towards the best experience of like that I can give you.
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:07,000
I'm doing it for you, not for me.
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:13,000
And I, like, all I'll say to that is it's for me, it's a felt experience of that.
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:19,000
Like, it's a felt experience of yes, this is right for you.
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:31,000
You can feel the difference. Like, if I ever fall into a little bit of neediness or if I ever fall into a little bit of trying to get something out of you, you feel the difference in me.
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:38,000
And I feel it in myself now too, where I wouldn't have in the past, but I like, I even notice the difference.
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:51,000
I can't say I have much more awareness around it now and I'm able to articulate it over time as I've also gotten rid of more of that emotional mess in myself.
00:51:51,000 --> 00:52:11,000
So there's a surrender that is necessary on the part of the dominant in the realm of neediness, in the realm of like getting everything you want in the realm of emotional expression.
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:25,000
Like, I have got to be able to feel you in all of your experiences, to really connect to your emotional experience and feel that in my own heart.
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:33,000
For me to be able to be commanding a view in a way that's moving you towards your best life.
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:54,000
And so if my own like inner patterns, my own unconscious belief around how like a woman is supposed to be or what I need you to be like.
00:52:54,000 --> 00:53:11,000
If there's any sort of me trying to shape you or change you or need you to be different than you are, then I can't lead you in a way that is completely and totally connected to the truth and what's right for you.
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:24,000
Because then it's coming into your experiences coming into me through a lens of how do I get my own needs met.
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:40,000
So I have got to be able to surrender in my own way in order for you to feel safe enough to surrender as fully as you need to in order for you to share your full emotional experience with me.
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:45,000
Which I need in order to lead you in the right direction.
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:51,000
And that's where this becomes a mutual surrender and a mutual giving and taking.
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:55,000
I will also add surrendering of a timeline.
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:56,000
00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:06,000
Of getting anywhere by a certain point because there really one thing that we no matter what we're doing, who we're working with,
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:19,000
with men or women, couples, dominance or submissives, a common theme is basically like surrendering to an unknown time.
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:32,000
Like the concept of time has to go off the table because working through what we have to get to where we're at, nobody could have told us what we had to go through exactly.
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:42,000
Because we like you don't know what's inside and you don't know how long it's going to take and like you can't be guaranteed to get anywhere at a certain point.
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:52,000
So really it's surrendering to your day, to your moment, to reality, to what is in front of you right now.
00:54:52,000 --> 00:55:13,000
One of the things that I know that men here when they talk about surrendering like neediness and surrendering to some of what what it is that you want to get from her is like so I'm just giving her everything she needs and am I am I not getting any of what I need.
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:32,000
Do I just become a plow horse who exists to give her everything she wants and not get what I want in return.
00:55:32,000 --> 00:56:01,000
That might be a whole another episode. So what I would say to that is most of us as men think that we want to need certain things because it's driven by a sense of inner lack rather than a sense of inner abundance.
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:14,000
And it's driven by whims and weaknesses trying to fill holes in yourself.
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:25,000
So the things that a lot of men think that we need isn't really what we need. It might be what we want and it's okay to want.
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:38,000
It's okay to desire. It's okay to have all of your own like all of your own desires as a man.
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:49,000
But if you are going into a dumb sub dynamic with getting everything you want as your primary objective.
00:56:49,000 --> 00:57:03,000
Again, you are going to work directly against creating any kind of a sense of safety for your submissive to be able to give you her whole self.
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:14,000
Yep. And when it's authentic submission, it's going to feel so much better for both. And it's going to open up doors that you didn't even know was possible.
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:29,000
And it does mean like there's another surrender of dominance because it does feel very much like I'm letting go of things that are important to me sometimes.
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:37,000
And yet at the same time, most of those things end up coming back around once I've let go of the neediness attached to them.
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:45,000
Because we as women feel that even if we don't know, we feel it.
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:55,000
So mutual surrender, both people let go of things. It's not just the dominant ordering the submissive around.
00:57:55,000 --> 00:58:09,000
It is not the only one who's letting go of parts of her experience. This really is mutual. And it really, it finds equal measure.
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:22,000
You aren't going to be able to authentically feel submission to any greater extent than I'm able to let go of my neediness and let go of my inner weakness.
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,000
They find a balance.
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:34,000
Yep. That touches on the man needs to lead because he has to connect to his own dominance.
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:48,000
So the last tip, we already touched a little bit on some of this, but I think it's an important one that if you are trying to add dominant submissive dynamics into an existing relationship.
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,000
And a lot of people do.
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,000
A lot of people do.
00:58:52,000 --> 00:59:07,000
If you are trying to add this dynamic into an existing relationship without blowing it up, then it's going to take some time.
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:23,000
We talked before already about patients, but also when we transitioned into being a dom sub couple after almost 10 years together, almost 8 years of being married.
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,000
And then I bring this to you.
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:32,000
And you say yes. And then we wake up the next morning and we're still the exact same people.
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:42,000
With all the same past, with all the mistakes that we've made, with all of the, we still don't know anything that we don't know.
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:59,000
So it took time to change the way that we relate to each other because we were, you don't just get to delete all of those years of experience of how you've shown up for each other and how you've not shown up for each other.
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:05,000
It's not just flipping a switch saying, "I'm off and you're on no."
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,000
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:11,000
Yeah, because it...
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:27,000
You have to do is work past the ways that you've come to know each other as you get to know each other in a new way.
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,000
Because it's going to happen for a while.
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:47,000
For us and sometimes still does now after like almost five years. It's going to happen where I'm going to do something and you're going to react to that as though I'm doing it the way that I used to.
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:57,000
And then I'm going to have the internal experience of, does she not even know that I've like how much work I put in to be better and different?
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:00,000
Or I thought she wouldn't have to be my submissive.
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:07,000
Yeah. Like that's one that comes out quite a bit. Like if she wanted to be my submissive.
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:18,000
The reality is in those cases you do want to be my submissive. But you have enough evidence built up inside of you of how I was for as long as I was that way.
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:31,000
That you are still perceiving me as being the same because you might have 150 examples of how I was in situations like this before.
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:39,000
And you might have zero or two or six examples of how I'm handling this now.
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:48,000
And how I'm approaching my life differently.
01:01:48,000 --> 01:02:02,000
And it would be unreasonable for me to expect that you are just going to totally and completely believe that I'm a different person without some evidence to back up the fact that I'm different.
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:04,000
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:10,000
And it goes the same way with me for you.
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:28,000
You know, one of these for us has been like the way that I would perceive your reactions when I would say certain things as I would perceive it as resistance or I would perceive it as a lack of interest.
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:32,000
And that that's so frustrating sometimes.
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:38,000
Yeah. Well, because I had a lot of evidence of resistance and lack of interest for a long time.
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:40,000
And I own that.
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:50,000
And so then it took time for me to learn that those resistances and that lack of interest wasn't there anymore.
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:55,000
Like there actually was openness and desire instead.
01:02:55,000 --> 01:03:02,000
And I got to a point where I would just say, hey, like I'm actually showing up differently now.
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:06,000
And you're like, oh yeah, I'm operating out of an old pattern.
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,000
And I just kind of brought some lightness to it.
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:13,000
And it just kind of just shown a little bit of light on it.
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:16,000
And it was helpful.
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:24,000
Yeah, it's an important thing for couples to remember if you're introducing this after years and years and years of relating to each other in a different way.
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:27,000
You're going to have like the beginning and it's going to be really exciting.
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:35,000
And then you're going to realize like, oh, hey, we have some new things to learn about each other.
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:39,000
And it doesn't just flip a switch.
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:45,000
Like you said overnight where you're all the way into authentic dominance and all the way into authentic submission.
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:49,000
And you can just learn how to relate to each other now from that place.
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:57,000
It takes time for you and for me to grow into these different versions of ourselves.
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:04,000
And then it takes time for me to learn how to relate to the new version of you.
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:09,000
And it takes time for you to learn how to relate to the new version of me.
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:10,000
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:18,000
So in my mind, what was being pictured even though I hate roller coasters, it was like a long roller coaster.
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:23,000
And you have the uphill climb and then all of a sudden you get the downhill and it's like,
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:24,000
"Wait, this is great."
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:28,000
And then all of a sudden you're like, "Oh shit, we're climbing again."
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:31,000
And it just keeps happening over and over and over and over.
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:37,000
But it all continues to get better when you both are in it for the long haul.